Wednesday 31 August 2016

Why the F-35 could 'never in a million years' out dogfight the RAF Typhoon or the Russian Su-35



AUG 31, 2016, 5:00 AM

In a recent interview with Business Insider, Justin Bronk, a research fellow specializing in combat airpower at the Royal United Services Institute, dropped a bombshell about the US’s $1 trillion F-35 program:
“The F-35 cannot out dogfight a Typhoon (or a Su-35), never in a million years.”
In earlier stages of the F-35’s development, some bad reports came out claiming it lost in simulated dogfights to the F-16, a legacy platform the F-35 intends to replace.
Lately, the news coming out about the F-35’s dogfighting ability has taken a visible turn to the positive, but dogfighting was never the main purpose or strong suit of the Joint Strike Fighter.
For that reason, older fighters, like the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Sukhoi Su-35, could likely outmaneuver and kill an F-35 in a close range confrontation.
While every credible report indicates that the F-35 will dominate in stealthiness, situational awareness, and beyond visual range confrontations, dogfights, or up close fights with opposing fighter pilots jockeying for position and a clean shot, depend on a different set of characteristics.
Thrust-to-weight ratio and wing loading, or the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wings, comprise some of the chiefly important factors in dogfighting.
“Typhoon and Su-35 both have positive thrust-to-weight ratios at combat loadings, meaning that they can accelerate vertically and generally both maintain and regain energy in a turn much more successfully than the F-35 (particularly the heavier B and C models),” explained Bronk.
The F-35 does have a positive thrust-to-weight ratio, but when loaded up with fuel and ordinance for combat, it’s unclear if that will remain.
Ultimately, having small wings and a design more geared toward stealth than kinematics hurts the F-35’s dogfighting prospects.
“A low wing loading means that Typhoon and Su-35 can sustain much tighter turns than the F-35 whilst also creating less induced drag and losing less energy,” said Bronk.
In the case of the Russian Su-35, an adversary infinitely more likely to face the F-35 than the Typhoon, the F-35 overcoming the Su-35’s supermanoeuvrability while dogfighting seems an insurmountable task.
“Su-35 also has thrust-vectoring engines, meaning that it can maintain control and continue to point its nose where the pilot wants even after the wings have stalled (called supermaneuverability) which is a potentially large advantage within visual range and at low speeds.”
Not only does stealth limit the F-35’s mobility, it also limits its capacity for ordinance.
“Typhoon and Su-35 also carry larger missile loadouts than F-35 in normal combat configurations meaning that at close range they have twice as many infra-red seeking missiles to fire at their opponents,” Bronk said.
As Business Insider previously explored, infra-red tracking is key to finding and fighting advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35.
But none of this would be news to the US Air Force, who have intentionally sacrificed dogfighting abilities for stealth and situational awareness. The whole point of the F-35 is to see enemy jets from far beyond visual range and engage them with advanced missiles.
According to Bronk, neither an Su-35 or a Typhoon would see the F-35 until it is very close, at which point the legacy jets are completely at the mercy of the more advanced fifth-gens who can “avoid them, engage them, or position themselves for an engagement entirely on their terms.”
So while an F-35 most likely cannot win a dogfight against a Typhoon or an Su-35, it’s game-changing capabilities at long range all but guarantee it will never have to.
Original post: businessinsider
Is the JSF Really a Fifth Generation Fighter?
 Modern Fighters
Current Threat
5th Generation Fighter Capabilities
F-22A Raptor
T-50 PAK-FA
Chengdu
J-20
F-35A JSF
Lightning II
Gen 4++
Su-35S
USA
Russia
China
International
Russia
Super Cruise
Yes
> 1.7 Mach
(0)
Yes, ~1.8 Mach with persistence
(0)
Yes
(0)
No
(-1)
Yes
(0)
High Agility
Supersonic / Subsonic
Yes
(0)
Extreme Plus
(+1)
Yes
(0)
Neither
(-1)
Extreme
(+1)
High Specific Excess Power - Ps
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
No
(-1)
Yes
(0)
Thrust Vectoring Control - TVC 2-D
Yes
2-D
(0)
Yes
3-D
(+1)
Accommodated
3-D
(0)
No
(-1)
Yes
3-D
(+1)
Highly Integrated Avionics
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Electronically Steered Array (ESA) Radar
High Power Aperture
(+1)
High Power Aperture
(+1)
Yes
(0)
Medium Power Aperture
(0)
High Power
Aperture
(+1)
Sidelooking ESA Apertures
Fitted For But Not With (FFBNW)
(0)
Yes
(+1)
Insufficient
Data
No
(-1)
Yes
(0)
High Situational Awareness (SA) - Onboard/Offboard
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Likely
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Supersonic Weapons Delivery
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
No
(Bomber Doors / Toed-In Carriage)
(-1)
Yes
(0)
Large Thrust to Weight
Multi-Engine
Thrust Growth
Yes
2 Engines
Large Growth
(0)
Yes
2 Engines
Large Growth
(0)
Yes
2 Engines
Large Growth
(0)
Middling T/W
One Engine
Little Growth
(-1)
Yes
2 Engines
Large Growth
(0)
High Combat Ceiling Loiter / Operate (plus > 7 deg/sec turn rate, sustained @ 30 kft)
Yes
> 55 kft
Yes
(0)
Yes
> 60 kft
Yes
(0)
Yes
> 50 kft
Yes
(0)
No
< 45 kft
No
(-1)
Yes
> 55 kft
Yes
(0)
Very Low Observable RF Stealth / Low Observables
All Aspect Wideband
(+1)
Yes or Partial
(0)
Yes or
Partial
(0)
Yes but Partial
(0)
Not Intended
(-1)
Good Non RF Observables
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
Yes
(0)
No
VOVS/WVE
(-1)
Not Intended
(-1)
Large Internal Usable Fuel Load(klbs)
Yes >18 klbs
PLUSthermal cooling
fuel load ~2,000 lbs
(0)
Yes, ~22 klbs
includes fuel for thermal cooling
(0)
Yes, ~25 klbs
includes fuel for
thermal cooling
(+1)
No, <18 klbs
MINUS fuel for thermal cooling
(-1)
Yes
>23 klbs
(+1)
Internal Weapon Carriage Hard Point Stations
Yes
6 + 2
(0)
Yes
6+2
(0)
Yes
6 + 2
(0)
Yes
4
(0)
Partial
(Tunnel Pod)
2 - 4
(-1)
ZOCT Scoring
by 5th Gen Metrics
+2
+4
+1
-10
+1
Table © 2009 - 2013, Peter Goon, Air Power Australia, Peter Goon & Associates.
Update Source Documents:
Initial release table 8th November, 2009: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-081109-1.html

 Related post:
FLIR Footage Shows F-35's Stealth Limitations
Sukhoi Su-35: Details
Eurofighter Typhoon: Details
F-35 Lightning II: Details
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